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Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
The bible also states that it's OK to have slaves as long as they are from another country, and that it's wrong to work on Sunday, subject to stoning. These edicts have somehow escaped prominent public Vatican and Protestant pronouncements which leads one to believe there are more earthly prejudices at work.
Now the good lady wife, who comes from one of those European families that punctuates each generation by giving one of its own to the priesthood, is rather chuffed with all this.
According to her, JP2 was a complete prick. She blames him for - among other things - the spread of aids across Africa, the suppression of freedom movements in a whole host of authoritarian (but Catholic), right-wing countries, and for being so retrogressive as to drive millions from the Catholic Church. She is livid that he didn't follow the lead of J23 and improve on his reforms.
I prefer to paraphrase Zaphod Beeblebrox: "The Pope?, he's just this guy, you know?"
I think the Catholic Church's head in the sand attitude to AIDS in Africa & Asia is the most reprehensible moment under JP2's leadership.
Closely followed by their by-the-collection-plate compensation to victims of priestly sexual deviency (but let's keep that hush hush ok Timmy?). Sure, that's not unique to Catholics, but their not allowing priests to marry and have their own children I don't think is viable in today's age where sex is so 'in your face' everywhere.
I believe i've read somewhere that the Bible also states that I should sell my first born daughter, but like dst said, certain things in the Bible are conveniently ignored aren't they? Why not a few more things that might actulally help to solve society's problems in the modern age.
Despite being an atheist, i respected John Paul. His politics were peacefull and he brought the catholic church out of their habit of shunning progress, culturally and scientifically. Hopefully his predocessor will continue this trend.
The bible also states that it's OK to have slaves as long as they are from another country, and that it's wrong to work on Sunday, subject to stoning. These edicts have somehow escaped prominent public Vatican and Protestant pronouncements which leads one to believe there are more earthly prejudices at work.
Yes. This is why I feel that the church is in desperate need of reform. The fact that the Bible is so old is forcing priests to cherry-pick the teachings they like and ignoring those that they do not like.
It's not a sustainable position, IMHO. The Bible needs to be rewritten - a divine intervention would be nice..
Don't sweat it jello. Let their hatred run its course. They are the ones who lose.
What hatred?
We're up 4 atheists, you're down one pope
Wouldn't class myself as a atheist in the strict sense but I still feel that it should be allowed to ask questions. It's not God, Jesus, Allah or Vishnu we are talking about here, it's a human being and in the wider sense a politician who has died. So without trying to offend anyone (and without being threatened with eternal damnation) it should be possible to cast certain things into doubt. Enlightenment vs. scholasticism so to speak. I don't claim to know the answers to such questions or be morally or intelectually superior to people who are in great grief at the moment but I think it should be allowed to draw a line between belief and administration. And even thoughgood old Lease's way of putting things is quite harsh, the gist, that even practicing catholics have put question marks over his doctrinal approach to catholicism and that this has been completely forgotten by the media for the sake of some flickering candles, is an issue imho.
For the record, I'm not an atheist. But spirituality has to be more to me than unquestioning dogma and counting beads. As for the Bible, Koran, Torah etc., and organized religion in general, these were written by and are made up of human beings who are/were very fallible with an earthly agenda.
You know, here in Italy we used to have the Pope on tv quiet often... And actually I never heard him saying form the balcony to africans: go and fuck around as much as you like, without condoms, get Aids and die, you bastards. He rather said have sex with your wife/husband only and you won't get the disease. But maybe he said that when visiting your countries, probably there was some problem with translation...
I'm a catholic and I'm a "progressista", I've always considered JP II a too conservative for my taste. But I admired him anyway and I guess this would be a better world with more men like him. And so do hundreds of milions people: christians, jews, muslims, atheists or simply men, since he was a great Man before being a great Pope.
And let me tell you that you all own something to that old Polish man, since it's also for him that we don't have communists regimes around anymore in Europe, and it's also for him that we haven't had a clash of civilization/religion after Mr George W. Bush invided Iraq.
Clown, by CARING about whether the Pope lives, or dies, you are breaking a fundamental rule of atheism. Acknowledging that the death of the Pope is a good thing is to accept that God exists.
Let us turn to the scriptures:
1. Life of Brian Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly! Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity. Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah! Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
AND
2. The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy The Babel Fish is a creature that can be inserted into the ear of a host and by feeding on the host's brainwaves (and those around the host), magically makes everyone able to understand the communication of everyone else in the universe.
'Now it is such a bizzarely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evovled purely by chance, that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But", says man, "the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
Not really. Its like politics. An asshole gets elected, and uses their power to fuck things up, then eventually someone else gets elected, and hopefully isn't such a prick.
Whether you are a "believer" or not isn't relevent, an organisation as ubiquitous as the church will play a part in your life regardless.
Clown, by CARING about whether the Pope lives, or dies, you are breaking a fundamental rule of atheism. Acknowledging that the death of the Pope is a good thing is to accept that God exists.
I don't know the fundamental rules of atheism or care about them, I follow my own rules, but he could just be caring that a human being is out of his misery from all the medical problems he had. It doesn't matter who the person is or what position he holds.
Not speaking as an atheist, I respect that the Pope tried to better humanity and I'm sorry they lost their spiritual leader. Do I agree with all that the Pope did or advocated? No, but that is my opinion, and other people are entitled to theirs.
Hopefully the PS05 debuts soon so we can focus our energy on it.
But, says he (scarcely able to believe his luck), one is simply pointing out that choosing not to believe makes as much sense as choosing to believe.
It is for this reason that a third option exists (and in order to avoid the complications of chaos theory, there may, or may not be more options), being the path of the agnostic.
In bringing the rationale of faith into a discussion regarding the king of one particular club, is akin to arguing whether Baden Powell was the chief representative of the concept of fellowship. One can accept the tennets of nice ideas without them having to be owned by any particular group.
[quote]At the risk of becoming unpopular on this board, I'm not commenting on this event.
Coward. I'm glad the pope is dead. [/quote] There's a difference between being a coward and choosing your fights. There's no way for me to resolve my opinions here in a civil manner.
Lease, by the way, talks a great deal of sense in his last few posts...
It's not a sustainable position, IMHO. The Bible needs to be rewritten - a divine intervention would be nice
:)
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
BTW, here's the guy I'd love to see dressed in white in few days
Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduras, 62) (d.o.b. 12/29/42)
Rodriguez Maradiaga, archbishop of Tegucigalpa, Honduras, is widely seen as a rising star in the Latin American church. He served as president of CELAM, the federation of Latin American bishops' conferences, until 1999. He speaks near-perfect Italian and English (along with passable French, Portuguese, German, Latin, and Greek), plays the piano, and has taken pilot training. He is ferocious on social justice issues. He was part of a small group that met German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder in Cologne to hand over the Jubilee 2000 petition for debt relief. Some say his rhetoric, however, is not matched by a command of policy details. Rodriguez has a warm smile and a ready sense of humor.
And moreover he's a salesian, the kind of priests I like best
[quote]Mohammad is the worlds greatest con man. Stole all the best from all the the previous religions and called it his owm.
Try again.
See that's what I love about quig. Can't tolerate people having a few digs at Catholicism and it's skeletons, yet it's no skin off his nose to put shit on Muslims and their beliefs. [/quote]
Sometimes the truth hurts, and Quig is just telling it like it is.
Hey guys... Bible issues like acceptable slavery are ignored but what dou you expect the Church to say? That they think it's a good thing still? C'mon... The people that wrote it probably owned slaves themselves as the Roman government was permitting it at that time and that's it. Of course it could be rewritten, but it's not necessary, if you read the Bible you should just do it with today's human mind. For sure it's not the main issue the Church should try to fix today with all the other messes they have. Changes in its structure as an organization should be more important now. And as I said earlier, I think it's only a matter of time (today's young, liberal priests taking over the charge) when the Church accept contrapception.
Comments
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by dst]
According to her, JP2 was a complete prick. She blames him for - among other things - the spread of aids across Africa, the suppression of freedom movements in a whole host of authoritarian (but Catholic), right-wing countries, and for being so retrogressive as to drive millions from the Catholic Church. She is livid that he didn't follow the lead of J23 and improve on his reforms.
I prefer to paraphrase Zaphod Beeblebrox: "The Pope?, he's just this guy, you know?"
Closely followed by their by-the-collection-plate compensation to victims of priestly sexual deviency (but let's keep that hush hush ok Timmy?). Sure, that's not unique to Catholics, but their not allowing priests to marry and have their own children I don't think is viable in today's age where sex is so 'in your face' everywhere.
I believe i've read somewhere that the Bible also states that I should sell my first born daughter, but like dst said, certain things in the Bible are conveniently ignored aren't they? Why not a few more things that might actulally help to solve society's problems in the modern age.
R.I.P.
We're up 4 atheists, you're down one pope :hehe:
[Edited on 4/4/2005 by Clown]
It's not a sustainable position, IMHO. The Bible needs to be rewritten - a divine intervention would be nice..
And actually I never heard him saying form the balcony to africans: go and fuck around as much as you like, without condoms, get Aids and die, you bastards.
He rather said have sex with your wife/husband only and you won't get the disease. But maybe he said that when visiting your countries, probably there was some problem with translation...
I'm a catholic and I'm a "progressista", I've always considered JP II a too conservative for my taste.
But I admired him anyway and I guess this would be a better world with more men like him. And so do hundreds of milions people: christians, jews, muslims, atheists or simply men, since he was a great Man before being a great Pope.
And let me tell you that you all own something to that old Polish man, since it's also for him that we don't have communists regimes around anymore in Europe, and it's also for him that we haven't had a clash of civilization/religion after Mr George W. Bush invided Iraq.
Ciao ciao, God bless you all;)
ciaooooooooooooooooooooooooo, viva il Papa!!!:hehe::D
But damn, I wish anything that happened in F1 started this level of discussion!
nicely done......
looking so forward to meeting you at Imola
I'm glad the pope is dead.
Let us turn to the scriptures:
1. Life of Brian
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
AND
2. The Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy
The Babel Fish is a creature that can be inserted into the ear of a host and by feeding on the host's brainwaves (and those around the host), magically makes everyone able to understand the communication of everyone else in the universe.
'Now it is such a bizzarely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evovled purely by chance, that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist", says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing." "But", says man, "the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear", says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by Lease]
An asshole gets elected, and uses their power to fuck things up, then eventually someone else gets elected, and hopefully isn't such a prick.
Whether you are a "believer" or not isn't relevent, an organisation as ubiquitous as the church will play a part in your life regardless.
[Edited on 5/4/2005 by Clown]
Not speaking as an atheist, I respect that the Pope tried to better humanity and I'm sorry they lost their spiritual leader. Do I agree with all that the Pope did or advocated? No, but that is my opinion, and other people are entitled to theirs.
Hopefully the PS05 debuts soon so we can focus our energy on it.
It is for this reason that a third option exists (and in order to avoid the complications of chaos theory, there may, or may not be more options), being the path of the agnostic.
In bringing the rationale of faith into a discussion regarding the king of one particular club, is akin to arguing whether Baden Powell was the chief representative of the concept of fellowship. One can accept the tennets of nice ideas without them having to be owned by any particular group.
May the force be with you (and with Minardi)
I'm glad the pope is dead. [/quote]
There's a difference between being a coward and choosing your fights. There's no way for me to resolve my opinions here in a civil manner.
Lease, by the way, talks a great deal of sense in his last few posts...
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
:angel:;)
Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduras, 62) (d.o.b. 12/29/42)
Rodriguez Maradiaga, archbishop of Tegucigalpa, Honduras, is widely seen as a rising star in the Latin American church. He served as president of CELAM, the federation of Latin American bishops' conferences, until 1999. He speaks near-perfect Italian and English (along with passable French, Portuguese, German, Latin, and Greek), plays the piano, and has taken pilot training. He is ferocious on social justice issues. He was part of a small group that met German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder in Cologne to hand over the Jubilee 2000 petition for debt relief. Some say his rhetoric, however, is not matched by a command of policy details. Rodriguez has a warm smile and a ready sense of humor.
And moreover he's a salesian, the kind of priests I like best
[/quote]
Sometimes the truth hurts, and Quig is just telling it like it is.
And as I said earlier, I think it's only a matter of time (today's young, liberal priests taking over the charge) when the Church accept contrapception.
Any guy who can wear an all-white outfit, including a white hat, and get away with it has to be respected.