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Actions speak louder than words - the news of the changes in Washington are a few days old. The Al Queda story is brand new, and is a true threat to the WORLD, but instead of being proactive and calling to attention the REAL trouble makers in the world many of you just get out the Bush is bad, the US is bad yadda yadda.....
Remember had there been no 9/11 then we would not be where we are at today.
Spin in regards to your rape question - I would not actually do the deed myself. Living in San Francisco as I do it would not be hard to find a "contractor" - like this guy
But seriously. What would YOU do if a guy comes up to you and says he is going to do something bad to you or your family? Do you wait until he actually does something or do you prepare your defences and options without delay? Take immediate action as necessary?
More on topic: when you're getting attacked or being threatend to get attacked it's normal to defend yourself. With violence if needed. But in the end it can never be the only solution.
You seem to see only the miltary options, and have been sucked into thinking that pre-emptive military strikes are the preferred approach.
Look at history, where whole wars have been started by dictators with the same idea. Look at the miltarised countries and see how the wars continued or finally finished with enormous costs. America is currently trying to find a solution to an unpopular occupation.
For every problem there are solutions. However, sometimes the solution requires laterla thinking. One principle I've often pursued is when the primary factors do not offer a ready solution, then look to the duality of the problem.
If that problem is to reduce the threat of attack, and say, the result of increased resources is increased costs and increased casualties, i.e. NOT GOOD!
The dual function may be to reduce the threat of attack by creating reasons for cooperation rather than conflict.
(NOW before you jump to the argument that you can't negotiate with terrorists, or cooperate with a bad guy, let me say that we have to look at the big picture. What made these guys "bad guys" in the first place.)
Take the helicopter view, how do we improve relations with countries which might have the potential for bad guys". Do we insult them? Do we threaten their religion, Do we kill their men, women and children? Do we tell them, that our way, our religion, our democracy, is what they need? Do we look like we are taking over their oil and resources? Do we bring in our big companies to take all the best jobs, at inflated prices, while the locals get no work, do we fail to provide power and water?
If you answered "yes" to 2 or more of the above questions, then you solution isn't going to work, today or in the future, and you can be sure of more "bad guys" than you can ever kill.
Now, the US is actually a new boy, when it comes to war. The chinese, romans, brits, germans and indians, should be listed to, when it comes to strategies for dealing with bad guys.
Today I read that Dubya is coming to Asia to tell us his vision for Asia. Guess what! He wants to scare us about the terrorists in our midst.
Give us a break! That bastard hasn't learned anything!
I am encouraged that a slim majority of Americans have at least called for a change and the need for truth and openness from the administration.
Why should the US change?
Why indeed?
...and change to What?
Because it CAN and should....... correct it's mistakes made by the Bush administration and return to its principles.
Very nice. Answer this. Al Queda/muslum extrenmists/islamofaciits wants us to convert or die. They have NO other outcome possible. What is the solution?
For any newbies on the board, I would like to say that I live in a prediminantly muslim country and have worked in many of the Middle East countries. I read about ten international newspapers every day plus think-tank and security reports and try to get a variety of slants and viewpoints on the news.
I see many Muslims critical of Islamic emtremists and looking to understand and be at peace with the West. However, just as this seems to make progress, the hardliners in the West and Israel stir up the issues ansd hatred again, with ignorant statements or ill-directed attacks killing civilians.
A case in point is debate on the veil, with a number of Muslims suporting Straw in the UK, accepting that non-muslims may have legitimate concerns about full veils, and that after 911 and the London attacks, Islam needs to adapt to present world realities.
We need to push for education and understanding with everything we've got. Creating a basis for tolerance, or even better, acceptance of differences is the priority, but cannot be achieved in isolation. Foreign policies and postures also need to change.
However, just as this seems to make progress, the hardliners in the West and Israel stir up the issues ansd hatred again, with ignorant statements or ill-directed attacks killing civilians.
What progress? Have the islamofacisits softened thier position to let us live as 2nd class citizens in their Sharia world? In addition, wasn't it the islamofacisits who captured, and still hold as prisoners to the best of my knowlwdge, the 2 Israeli soldiers which led to the most recent dificulties in Israel? What about the constant rocket attacks launched from Gaza? Who is instigating these attack on CIVILIANS?
Who are we to deal with? Name them. We would talk. We being the world including the US. But they do not want to talk. Thyey want people like me dead.
The iceberg is getting bigger, and some people are still trying to destroy it by shooting the tip off.
Strangely a new tip rises up everytime, and higher as the berg grows.
There is no point in discussing the whole problem if people like Quig only discuss the committed extremists.
But I'll try!
Quig, the extremists garner their support from the mistakes and misdeeds of the west.
True, there are a great many in Islam who believe what you say. Most of them suffer from a limited understanding of their religion. The words given to them by the Imams and Muftis are chosen to fit the circumstances. The call to actions are increased by the heightened hostilities.
The same religion has co-existed with the west for centuries, like a hornet's nest, a criminal cell or a loonie, who might lay dormant or attack. Unfortunately instead of containment and control, we have a meglamaniacal agenda of talking away freedoms from the good guys through artificially created fear.
The guys who carried out 911 actually died in their act.
No Bush did not create more - the fanatics in the Madrassa's and the Mosque's use the actions and the words of the West - distort them in some cases - and use them to build their following.
How much money do we give to developing countries - many Muslum! What thanks do the west get? Bombs, head chopping's....
Again. WHO does the west talk to DIRECTLY in order to sort this? If there is no one then who will be their "ambassador" so that we can talk thru them?
When will they give up on the convert or die - 'cause that is all I am hearing from Islam.
A. Everyone, through economic cooperation, PR, education, social and sporting contacts.
Look at what has happened with Israel refusing to recognise a party to talk to!
Look, I never hear the "convert or die message" here!
Do you really hear it from Muslims or secondhand from your fear mongerers?
Even this week, I've had pleas to do work with Muslim countries as they want to learn from us. Not a single "convert or die" threat just requests for project consulting so they can meet western standards
I can't help them at the moment due to work load pressures of working with western oil companies clients, but the potential for cooperation is huge.
Remember, more Americans are killed by Americans daily, than by Islamic extrremists (11 young people per day from gunshot). What are you doing 'bout that?
Sorry to be blunt! But please get real and stop frightening the horses!
You failed to answer my question about Hamas and the 2 soldiers in question. That should shed some light on why Israeal is not recognizinfg a bunch of people whose platform is to drive them into the sea od kill them.
Have you listened to any of what the leader of Iran has been saying lately?
Convert or die? Well look to OBL. He and his pals have said that the only way is to follow Islam.
I am not scaring horses but pointing out truths.
Again. WHO do you want us to talk to in order to stop the casualities ON BOTH SIDES?
Oh, BTW - what about the genocide of the Christians in the Sudan? They are being killed for religous purposes. What is the answer there?
Sorry, I'd like to respond, but haven't time today.
Who to talk to? See my first answer.
Seems you're really making the case for the futility of war.
We have some visitors here, expect facty in a few minutes, will watch the A1GP parade behind a safety car in Beijing then race for the airport for Mumbai for a week.
BTW I'm just back from Thailand and didn't get killed by any Muslims terrorists, then Laos last week, (lovely people those former commie B's) and still surviving.
You really worry about OBL? I thought Bush and Cheney had him on the run or hiding in a cave!
You avoided the question. We talk about economics and all that all the time. Remember my point about foreign aid? Failed to catch that one did you....
Laos and Thailand have big Muslum populations - but they are not (openly) calling for the death to the West. Glad you made it out alive - try the Sudan.
I see you missed that question as well.
Have a nice party - and best of luck to AY - and that is sincere. Hey Facty!
Sorry I was away from the board and did not have a chance to reply to you, Quig. if you look at my posts, you will see that I have said that the fight had to be won in Afganistan. Iraq was a foolish distraction. For me anyone who has been as misguided as Bush no longer deseves to run foriegn policy anywhere.
but instead of being proactive and calling to attention the REAL trouble makers in the world many of you just get out the Bush is bad, the US is bad yadda yadda.....
we don't need to call attention to the real trouble makers (if you meant the terrorists) as they are so bluddy obviously loud, bad and evil already. what we need to call to attention is the equally bad dummy/scummy/rummy trio as they pretended they are so "right". obviously now, the other parts of the world are now not alone as the americans have now gotten smarter and voted those in who will change course.
quig's question 1:
how to deal with "convert or die"?
yes, it was uttered by the most extremistic of the terrorists and you deal with it the same way you deal with their calls to annihilate israel or all americans as they are all sickos! you just ignore them the same way you ignore the extreme rightwing ultras utterances.
quig's question 2:
who do we talk to?
you have no one to talk to stop this as even the dummy/scummy/rummy trio knew when they first started out...that's why they enacted the stringent homeland security rules...they in fact knew they have opened americans to extreme vulnerability.
the american leadership MUST stop being bullies, reengineer their image to be loved by the world instead of being hated...then the moderate muslims will deal with the extremistic muslims...as it is america is soooo bad that it will be suicidal for the moderate muslims to deal with the extremists now as it would swing the fence sitter muslims against the moderate muslims if the moderate muslims were to deal with the extremistic muslims now...it would simply be too much for the moderate muslims and the fence sitter muslims to be seen to be siding with the devils who are representing all american before the rep's defeat.
i see a silver lining appearing in the horizon now after the losses of both houses by the reps, but it won't progress unless the americans re-engineer their present horrible horrible image and that means a new president from the dems for 4 terms or more and another decade or so.
Comments
Remember had there been no 9/11 then we would not be where we are at today.
Spin in regards to your rape question - I would not actually do the deed myself. Living in San Francisco as I do it would not be hard to find a "contractor" - like this guy
But seriously. What would YOU do if a guy comes up to you and says he is going to do something bad to you or your family? Do you wait until he actually does something or do you prepare your defences and options without delay? Take immediate action as necessary?
[Edited on 11-11-06 by MCSF]
[Edited on 11-11-06 by MCSF]
More on topic: when you're getting attacked or being threatend to get attacked it's normal to defend yourself. With violence if needed. But in the end it can never be the only solution.
Of course I would defend my family and my home!
It's a question of how best to do that.
You seem to see only the miltary options, and have been sucked into thinking that pre-emptive military strikes are the preferred approach.
Look at history, where whole wars have been started by dictators with the same idea. Look at the miltarised countries and see how the wars continued or finally finished with enormous costs. America is currently trying to find a solution to an unpopular occupation.
For every problem there are solutions. However, sometimes the solution requires laterla thinking.
One principle I've often pursued is when the primary factors do not offer a ready solution, then look to the duality of the problem.
If that problem is to reduce the threat of attack, and say, the result of increased resources is increased costs and increased casualties, i.e. NOT GOOD!
The dual function may be to reduce the threat of attack by creating reasons for cooperation rather than conflict.
(NOW before you jump to the argument that you can't negotiate with terrorists, or cooperate with a bad guy, let me say that we have to look at the big picture. What made these guys "bad guys" in the first place.)
Take the helicopter view, how do we improve relations with countries which might have the potential for bad guys". Do we insult them? Do we threaten their religion, Do we kill their men, women and children? Do we tell them, that our way, our religion, our democracy, is what they need? Do we look like we are taking over their oil and resources? Do we bring in our big companies to take all the best jobs, at inflated prices, while the locals get no work, do we fail to provide power and water?
If you answered "yes" to 2 or more of the above questions, then you solution isn't going to work, today or in the future, and you can be sure of more "bad guys" than you can ever kill.
Now, the US is actually a new boy, when it comes to war. The chinese, romans, brits, germans and indians, should be listed to, when it comes to strategies for dealing with bad guys.
Today I read that Dubya is coming to Asia to tell us his vision for Asia. Guess what! He wants to scare us about the terrorists in our midst.
Give us a break! That bastard hasn't learned anything!
I am encouraged that a slim majority of Americans have at least called for a change and the need for truth and openness from the administration.
Why should the US change?
Why indeed?
...and change to What?
Because it CAN and should.......
correct it's mistakes made by the Bush administration and return to its principles.
Spin
This is a serious question.
[Edited on 12-11-06 by MCSF]
I see many Muslims critical of Islamic emtremists and looking to understand and be at peace with the West.
However, just as this seems to make progress, the hardliners in the West and Israel stir up the issues ansd hatred again, with ignorant statements or ill-directed attacks killing civilians.
A case in point is debate on the veil, with a number of Muslims suporting Straw in the UK, accepting that non-muslims may have legitimate concerns about full veils, and that after 911 and the London attacks, Islam needs to adapt to present world realities.
We need to push for education and understanding with everything we've got. Creating a basis for tolerance, or even better, acceptance of differences is the priority, but cannot be achieved in isolation. Foreign policies and postures also need to change.
Spin
Who are we to deal with? Name them. We would talk. We being the world including the US. But they do not want to talk. Thyey want people like me dead.
You too.
Strangely a new tip rises up everytime, and higher as the berg grows.
There is no point in discussing the whole problem if people like Quig only discuss the committed extremists.
But I'll try!
Quig, the extremists garner their support from the mistakes and misdeeds of the west.
True, there are a great many in Islam who believe what you say. Most of them suffer from a limited understanding of their religion. The words given to them by the Imams and Muftis are chosen to fit the circumstances. The call to actions are increased by the heightened hostilities.
The same religion has co-existed with the west for centuries, like a hornet's nest, a criminal cell or a loonie, who might lay dormant or attack. Unfortunately instead of containment and control, we have a meglamaniacal agenda of talking away freedoms from the good guys through artificially created fear.
The guys who carried out 911 actually died in their act.
Finish? No Bush created thousands more!
How much money do we give to developing countries - many Muslum! What thanks do the west get? Bombs, head chopping's....
Again. WHO does the west talk to DIRECTLY in order to sort this? If there is no one then who will be their "ambassador" so that we can talk thru them?
When will they give up on the convert or die - 'cause that is all I am hearing from Islam.
A. Everyone, through economic cooperation, PR, education, social and sporting contacts.
Look at what has happened with Israel refusing to recognise a party to talk to!
Look, I never hear the "convert or die message" here!
Do you really hear it from Muslims or secondhand from your fear mongerers?
Even this week, I've had pleas to do work with Muslim countries as they want to learn from us. Not a single "convert or die" threat just requests for project consulting so they can meet western standards
I can't help them at the moment due to work load pressures of working with western oil companies clients, but the potential for cooperation is huge.
Remember, more Americans are killed by Americans daily, than by Islamic extrremists (11 young people per day from gunshot). What are you doing 'bout that?
Sorry to be blunt! But please get real and stop frightening the horses!
Spin
Have you listened to any of what the leader of Iran has been saying lately?
Convert or die? Well look to OBL. He and his pals have said that the only way is to follow Islam.
I am not scaring horses but pointing out truths.
Again. WHO do you want us to talk to in order to stop the casualities ON BOTH SIDES?
Oh, BTW - what about the genocide of the Christians in the Sudan? They are being killed for religous purposes. What is the answer there?
You want to talk convert or die THIS time?
Who to talk to? See my first answer.
Seems you're really making the case for the futility of war.
We have some visitors here, expect facty in a few minutes, will watch the A1GP parade behind a safety car in Beijing then race for the airport for Mumbai for a week.
BTW I'm just back from Thailand and didn't get killed by any Muslims terrorists, then Laos last week, (lovely people those former commie B's) and still surviving.
You really worry about OBL? I thought Bush and Cheney had him on the run or hiding in a cave!
Spin
Laos and Thailand have big Muslum populations - but they are not (openly) calling for the death to the West. Glad you made it out alive - try the Sudan.
I see you missed that question as well.
Have a nice party - and best of luck to AY - and that is sincere. Hey Facty!
5th today would have put Malaysia equal second in the Series, but now slip to 5th.
Ah well, a lot of cars went out for various reasons, that's racing!
Sepang next.
Spin
For me anyone who has been as misguided as Bush no longer deseves to run foriegn policy anywhere.
quig's question 1: yes, it was uttered by the most extremistic of the terrorists and you deal with it the same way you deal with their calls to annihilate israel or all americans as they are all sickos! you just ignore them the same way you ignore the extreme rightwing ultras utterances.
quig's question 2: you have no one to talk to stop this as even the dummy/scummy/rummy trio knew when they first started out...that's why they enacted the stringent homeland security rules...they in fact knew they have opened americans to extreme vulnerability.
the american leadership MUST stop being bullies, reengineer their image to be loved by the world instead of being hated...then the moderate muslims will deal with the extremistic muslims...as it is america is soooo bad that it will be suicidal for the moderate muslims to deal with the extremists now as it would swing the fence sitter muslims against the moderate muslims if the moderate muslims were to deal with the extremistic muslims now...it would simply be too much for the moderate muslims and the fence sitter muslims to be seen to be siding with the devils who are representing all american before the rep's defeat.
i see a silver lining appearing in the horizon now after the losses of both houses by the reps, but it won't progress unless the americans re-engineer their present horrible horrible image and that means a new president from the dems for 4 terms or more and another decade or so.
[Edited on 12-11-06 by FactyCrab]