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Do spend your days combing for this stuff? Isn't there a certain General of the US Army (still employed) whom I think you actually defended who denigrated Islam? Do you distrust the 'Christian community' any less because of those comments?
Of course it's distasteful...as distasteful as what similar utterings from the far right churches at the time of the asian tsunami which befell on mainly muslims...in fact the same tasteless muslims who also lean on as extreme a side as those christians said the same of their fellow muslim brothers...
there are really twisted remarks from the thousands of far right neo nazist, racist organisations from america and germany who slash at muslims, blacks and brown than there are than ultra islamists in the internet but do i consider all whites as representative of that? NO!
but a lot of whites do shiver straightaway when confronted with backpack carrying arab looking man in an underground train...in fact they shoot to death an arab looking brazilian who was not carrying a backpack with 12 bullets in his head and then alleged he was running away when he was not...that's how paranoid most whites are...
btw, didn't nearly all the christians say the black plague that befell europe as an act of God to punish all the sinners then? what balderdash to those who are not God fearing and what truth to all those God fearing men and women then...
Dr. Spin...we deal e hadn we are dealt adn wait fo the penulum to swing back the other way.. Such is the nature of our US system. Is it perfect, perhaps not. However it IS the sytem that has driven per capita GDP in the world to unknown highs in an written histroy. It has been the system that has given rise to a standard of living in the world in the last hundred years that had nto happened in the previous 5000.
I guess my issue with this conversation is once again everyone is saying what is wrong with the US Goverment. I maintain a business policy within our organization that I learned many years ago. If you gotta bitch, bitch. Bitch as much as you want! AS long as you spend as much energy and thought into providing a solution.
Facty... ok, same response to ya. So beyond a rather fatalistic attitude about the end of the world and there is no stopping it so we should all just shove a muzzel in our mouth opinion do you have an altertive policy solution as to what should be done?
Are either of you guys proposing that we have a violetn overthrow ot the US goverment? Replace Bush? We don't do that in our system. We hve checks and balances and we can impeach if he goes too far. Bush won the presidency. We live with the hand we are dealt and we modify the laws if we feel he or anyone else has overstepped their boundries of found an inappropriate loophole... The system of jurisprudence in the US is based upon precedent. The system evolves over time and hopefully improves. It is not perfect but it provides more HOPE to teh everyday man to improve the lot of he, his family and his progeny. No other system in history has come close to duplicating it. Do we mess up? Sure. But our system corrects for this. It may take years, it may take decades. But it corrects. Propose me another system that works!
Give me your solutions. I am receptive gentlmen. If you'r gonna talk the talk then walk the walk. That would be cricket.
Yes! He should be fired (Which is a damn sight farther than you went with General Falwell), IF that is an accurate item, a very big if. And yes, it can send a negative message, one readily recieved and used, especially by those looking for reasons to justify their own bias' and prejudices. I've been unable to find this anywhere else at all and it's pretty big news. This story isn't even bylined and the publication to which it's originally attributed is nowhere to be found, neither is the name of the person the comments are ascribed to or the Ministry he works for.
i'm not that fatalistic as to think there will be an end of the world...in fact i advocate all the time for softening the inevitable if the inevitable is to happen...reduce the damages...
scenario 1 possibility: energy crisis and the ozone carnage will (ok may well) create a semi frozen zone in the northern and southern hemispheres...migration of population towards the equatorial belt...such major migration can only be achieved by force from the powerful at the expense of the weak and meek...maybe huge conflicts?
scenario 2 possibility: usa through their use of force and misplaced world power leadership role went about their business as badly as the romans did, followed by the spanish and then the british who were all superpowers in their relevant era and they too contributed the driving forces of the world's gdp then...america will wilt through mismanagement of the economy (one big error is to think it will have a nett gain in the iraq adventure through the oil loot)...but no, the oil is not flowing...there is hardly any maintenance possibility let alone expanding the oil production volume...meanwhile the cost of iraq war is now 200,000 billion dollars at 221 million dollars a day...
cricket to counter scenario 1: reduce world population through birth control, reduce ozone destruction by america taking an agressive leadership "whup them" role in controlling green house effects by firstly signing the kyoto agreement...migrate peacefully to the less inhabited equatorial belt and reduce energy expenditure...use the resources not for war but for food cultivation efficiently in terms of energy expenditure...go back to the basics of using pedal power mixed with auto power...good for the physical health...etc. etc. etc....alternative is to allow half the world population to perish through famines and wars...this world can only sustain 4 billion people not 15 billion by 2020! of course i hope my friends and families will be amongst these 4 billions by staying out of the manic madness the world is currently undergoing...i might not be around to see it would i...
cricket to counter scenario 2: yes, sack your president and not to go wars anymore...let the sadam husseins of the world kill their own people within their borders if these people know not how to deal with their own dictators...if the us 0f a really wants to help...use covert means and take these dictators off this world rather than kill the innocent people along with the bad...us of a should concentrate in using their economic resources they are so good in accumulating to help the world through a benevolent way to earn the affections of the world at large...then these al qaeda type fanatics will disappear gradually or they will concentrate their resources and fervently misplaced fanaticism on the sadam husseins of the world...one not well kept secret is that osama hates sadam to the hilt and he would just as easily kill him as he would bush...the alternative to america not resorting to non-war intervention is that their world super power position be taken over by china and they slowly wilt away like the romans, the spanish and the british did...
Actually Bernie, I devote 90% of my working time to providing solutions.
Re Bush, he should be fired for a range of impeachable acts, lying to congress, etc.
He thinks he's entitled to take pre-emptive action against a country whose leader may commit a crime, yet you want to give him his full term to create more havoc.
I'm sorry but saying he should go is the most constructive solution I can offer for America, so long as Cheney doesn't take over. But if you can't get rid of him, at least stop encouraging him.
Look, I really don't like commenting on domestic issues, but America has become an international issue.
BTW, sorry to tell you this but to believe that no other system has ever come close to duplicating your system of jurisprudence is a bit much. I'd prefer the British or Australian court system any day, but they're not perfect either.
Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America! ;)
facty...intereting solutions, but how to do get the electorate behind those? a bit pie in the sky on some of this, wich is ok, but so many variables! You have failed ot mention the likilhood of a meteor hitting the Earth has a high probability. For the N & S hemisphere to freeze over would be a direct result of a massive change in the the jet stream. There are two sides ot the theory, one stating it would take generations and the other statign it could happen overnite. The ice age resulting would be totatally dependant on WHEN in the season that hppened in North America.. In any month BUT Sept, OCt, Nov or Dec, it would nto result in an ice age.
Dr. Spin, "I'm sorry but saying he should go is the most constructive solution I can offer for America, so long as Cheney doesn't take over. But if you can't get rid of him, at least stop encouraging him. "
Hmm, that presents a small problem in that we have a series of laws that dictate who takes over in the event of an impeachment. I don't think you would like any of the next few i line any better. So what you are really sugggesting a violent overthrow of the US. That can be the only way thay HE can go. Makes a good soundbite. get's headlines but is totaly unrealistic. We should all be driving hyrdogen powered cars, no one should smoke, we should all eat organic food. Yea yea yea, all good things but about as likely to happen in the next two weeks as replacing Bush. That is not a realisic soluton. Bush is one man, Yes, the Commnader-in-Chief fo the US but any leader is made up of they men eh chooses fo rhis team. It's the team of neo-cons who tend to be the problem.
"Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America"
THAT was NOT my point so please don't fuck with my words and twist them. You came down pretty frigggen hard on the US and my point was that you are forgeting the very positve impact that the US has had on the world in it's fvery short 200 years of history. Now you're saying that "look here's the typical arrogant ameican" in my face.
I really don't like having an open discussion and then someone reduces it to petty soundbites. That is immature and pisss me off. I had a similar conversation in a bar many years ago at university. The same kind of crap. My suggestion then, as now, is how bout we finish this round and we take this outside, I kick your ass, and then we come in and you buy the next round cause you lost and we start over from scratch. I really feel the urge to take out my aggressions with a bit of physical violance so that w can get back to our discussion.
Now, does that fit in better with you view of Americans? That is how it happens in the irish catholic neighborhood of my upbringing
No, really I came down hard on Bush not the whole USA.
If you feel responsible for helping elect him, so be it. But please don't shoot the messenger!
I hope you weren't really theatening me with violence. That would suggest to many that you have lost the argument, not me.
"No other system (your system of jurisprudence, as I pointed out) in history has come close to duplicating it." Did I really **** with your words"?
I studied in America, and law in Australia, and have managed British, Australian, Norwegian and Malaysian Companies. I've been expert witness many times and spent months in court. I love America, but recognise the merits of other systems too, and I pointed out that the British and Australian systems were not perfect either.
OK then I added the comment...Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America! ;)
Did you notice the wink? Tongue in cheek? On this board you're not supposed to get too upset if we soften an "offensive" comment with an appropriate emoticon.
So do you really have an objective basis for your claim that I **** with your words because that's not what you meant?
Bernie, I'm OK about ending this thread. I feel very badly for all the unnecessary suffering and death in the South at this time. I'm sure Americans are hurting over the events of this last week, and I wish you all well.
before you guys end this thread, let me pick with bernie...
now you are the one who ****ed with and twisted my words...where did i say that n. & s. hemispheres will freeze over..."semi frozen" is not "frozen"... ;)
i never said an ice age would come soon...with global warming and the huge rize in the ocean temperatures rising towards both poles, any weatherman would tell you that winters are going to be progressively colder and longer...
i alluded to the fact that the above coupled with the oil crisis, usa and eu might start wanting to migrate to save costs of heating in winters and to lessen their miseries...
:D :D :D
p.s. and why would you want to suggest a meteor hitting earth...is that likelier than my prognosis?
Dr. Spin, note the ;) ... and the offer to that we should not drop the conversation to the level of soundbite accusations. that just leads to voilence.... which sometimes a quick pop at each other might not be a bad idea so we can clear our minds and then have a beer together :D
I did not vote for our current President and I ahve to live with teh decisions made by the mojority of the voting public. Hence, In some cases you are preachign to the choir. Which means that although I agree with many of the things I can't really let ya get away with some of the more soundbited political speak .
"Did you notice the wink? Tongue in cheek? On this board you're not supposed to get too upset if we soften an "offensive" comment with an appropriate emoticon." -dr spin
no, I didnt' read it as tonge in cheek so much is lost in writtne words on boards like this. I thought I all the sudden was talking to someone who just wanted to bash the US and there was not point in further discussion. SO, my apologies for the offer to take it outside... but, as I said, maybe if we bop :spank: each other a couple times it might clear both our minds a wee bit and then we could have a beer;)
facty, My point was that there are innumerable things that COULD happen. One cannot predict all the bad things so we might want to live int he HOPE that all is not lost. Just seemd like you where being very fatalistic. I really don't see the people leaving Martha's Vinyard until it's under 10 feet of permafrost. Regardless of the likehood nothing is going ot happen until any of these events would reach critical mass.
Not really enought space to cover the issues related to Kyoto here. Although I think we SHOULD have signed there are some short term problems it would have prevented. Should we have sucked it up and signed. sure. but SOME congressmen and senatrs kind of like their jobs and the problems will not happen in their lifetime. very short sighted but that's realit.
I'm all for a beer together. As Emmett, Facty, Viges, Forzaminardi, KL Man and others can attest.
But you don't really need to "pop" me, or try to (I might not be that easy!). Just maintaining that I reduce serious argument to soundbytes has hurt me more than mere fisticuffs.
Soundbytes indeed, from someone who voted for the soundbyte king :-
"This isn't about a day, this will take weeks (or was it months)" such insightful understanding about the scale of Katrina.
"I won't forget this!" you bet he won't!
" We will re-build this great city!" no mention of the need to rebuild all along the coastlines of Mississippi and Louisiana, or whether there will be serious discussion about what best to do with New Orleans and the hurricane rpone coastline.
" I've signed a 10.5 Billion bill as a downpayment" no mention of trying to cut the 2.5 billion flood works program to 20% of that a few years ago.
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" that's mostly what the $2.5B was to prevent. Can the President read? OK, it wouldn't have held the F5 Hurricane levels but would have given more time for evacuation.
"I'm looking forawrd to going down there" Oh dear!
Seriously, Bernie, I may have used some short key statements for effect, but I have written pretty extensively on Iraq, Global Warming, Tsunami, and 911. I practically implored people not to vote for Bush last time, and they did, defending this President through blind patriotism.
Its time to take off the blinkers and demand effective government, accountability and respect for international law and conventions.
Otherwise you're neglecting America to defend a fool!
You state: "Soundbytes indeed, from someone who voted for the soundbyte king"
I take i tyou mean President Bush.
Perhaps you have not been reading my my posts.
I am pretty sure that I clearly stated: "I did not vote for our current President and I have to live with the decisions made by the mojority of the voting public."
Maybe if we did pop each othe rin the head and then have a beer after th cobwebs where clear we might be able to read each other's comments more clearly as it is apparant that I am not bein clear enough for you to understand.
I did not vote for our current President but that does not change that he IS the current Commander in Chief.
I know that must sound confusing to you.
Pointing out that his is not the sharpest tack in the box is repetitive. I believe I stated long ago: "1. President Bush is a poor leader and has too many Yes-men and neo-con's on staff. Discussing his abilities or Rummy's is like beating my head against the wall" and
"I guess my issue with this conversation is once again everyone is saying what is wrong with the US Goverment. I maintain a business policy within our organization that I learned many years ago. If you gotta bitch, bitch. Bitch as much as you want! AS long as you spend as much energy and thought into providing a solution. "
It seems that you want to continue to beat that dead horse. To what end? what is your point? I conceded that Bush was nto the best Preseident we have ever had. I, personally did not vote for him.
Now what? What do you want ot do? what is your slution other than pointing out how bad he is? what to you hope to achieve other than make yourself feel good bush bashing? you have not made ONE constructive solution.
Perhaps I was impressed with your first post n this this thread and thought that you wanted to dialogue. I see now that it is just bush bashing. That's really too bad....
he did...he asked of all americans to make sure they don't vote in an idiot next time around...that he likes to see peacemaker in and warmonger out...
far better than america calling for our previous PM to be deposed...al gore came to our commonwealth games opening and walked into the dinner as a guest and promptly blasted our previous pm and walked out! americans can disrespect our democracy and asked for revolt...jeepers...dr_spin just kept reminding you yankee guys on this board to vote in someone smart next time around...
spin won't ask for a revolution or an impeachment i think...God forbids that bush is impeached and cheney steps in!
to me john kennedy had an aura to the world as one of a dashing hero of the persecuted, nixon as one who was a conniving greasy haired mafia crook...bush will go down in history as a bumbling incoherent fool...
for the sake of america and the world, please don't make another 2 term mistakes, americans!
I didn't vote for Gore either. Gore was a bumbling fool who was potentially even more dangerous than Bush could ever be.
factycrab, are we reading the same posts? I feel like I've been reading a bad sitcom where the mother in law alwasys reminds the son how much of a piece of shit his wife is. What's the point.
Bernie, you did indeed write: "I did not vote for our current President and I ahve to live with teh decisions made by the mojority of the voting public. Hence, In some cases you are preachign to the choir. Which means that although I agree with many of the things I can't really let ya get away with some of the more soundbited political speak ."
I think I did read that originally and was wrong in later suggesting you did. With all the stuff going on, I drew an incorrect conclusion without going back and checking.
To me one of the biggest problems with those of you who don't see the need to tell Bush he'w wrong is that then the Bush bashers have to go the next step and blame the Bush voters.
Bush, by so stubbornly refusing to ever admit personal blame, also causes international resentment to swell against Americans generally.
I don't want to blame the US for the errors of a dangerous few, but people keep saying that Muslims should speak up against the extremists. Doesn't that hold for America also?
Before anyone says that I'm wrongly comparing a great nation to low-life terrorist killers, let me say that maybe the US is a thousand times more powerful and a thousand times more able to influence world affairs therfore it should apply a much higher standard for its own performance and that of its leaders.
It seems there's quite a few things we agree on. It would be unfortunate of freedom of speech brought us into hostility.
Let me finally caution you against the tendency of some of your countrymen to attack personally those who present an opposing viewpoint.
"Swiftboating" is a term in current use. "Roving" may soon be another. If it's not obvious to all of you yet, it certainly is to those of us who proclaim freedom of speech and diversity of opinion as strengths.
BTW in looking back to verify your quote, as a precursor to admitting my error, I discovered quite a few constructive suggestions and solutions. Seek and ye shall find!
Errors have been made. It is up the the populance of the US to make the cahnge.
Some basics of good communication are in order. If someone from TOIT point out a error on Minardi's part it is taken personally by a member of this group. IT is salt into an open wound. Simarly if someone points out that you area bastard one time that is fine but then pointing out "hey, I met some guyin bar who said he did your mom, maybe he's your dad" is not going to get a good costructive response.
If you have every seen the movie "Animal House" you might recall a scene where one of the active brothers comments "He can't do that to our pledges! Only we can do that to our pledges" is a good lesson. Some of the things your are saying, although true is just addiing fuel to the fire and not serving any constructive purpose What goes around comes around. Mr. Bush may perhaps be learning a good life lesson himself in the current natural disaster. You should not power play politics in time of natioanl cirsis with people's lives at stake. Time will tell.
By "bashing" the voters you solve nothing but making yourself feel better.
"winning" in Iraq may no longer be hte issue. It is saving people's lives and letting them live in a society and government of their choosing without bloodshed. How that happens will not be assisted by the US making a whoelsale withdrawal as history as shown.
Mrrs. Bush and company have not done any favors for the US perception int he world. He is has a dramatically different approach to World Relations than his predecessor. Mr. Clinton was perceived as not wanting to have a body count. Bush is diametrically opposed. It might be a good lesson to learn for World leaders that US politics can swing the complete oppostie direction if the US electorae perceives that we are not portraying a strong leadership postion. In other words, soemtime the US people want you to walk softly and carry a big stick... but, lest anyone forget, sometimes we will lect a leader who is more than willing and happy to use it. Then it is time to let the pendulum swing back and we vote in someone more akin to the present need to correct the perception lest we become a bully. At present we are in the Bully phase. ...and so it goes...
Do you see me as a competitor or enemy? I have five of my family living in the USA and both my country and my wife's are two of America's most prominent allies.
OK, I am not an American citizen, but as I have pointed out I studied there, have visited many times (travelled 20 States) and have great affection for America.
If the US President confined himself to domestic matters, your rejection of outside criticism would be fair enough.
However, this thread is about Iraq, where GWB is executing his policy of US right to pre-emptive action, on false premises in other people's country.
Beyond Iraq, he also speaks belligerently about Iran and North Korea, apparently again with little understanding of the forces he would face there. He thumbs his nose at the responsible world community of nations who are trying to agree ACTION on global warming.
Don't be surprised when citizens of the world react. We are not all reassured that we should just wait because one day the pendulum will swing back.
Logical responses are needed now and logic need not fear criticism.
To reiterate- I have never espoused that this was a war for oil. It's just stupid policy, wrong on all counts. Now we will take the blame for the problems Hussein has brought to roost from years of neglecting the oil infrastructure.
The only possible connection I've ever stated is that if there was nothing but more sand under all that sand we wouldn't give 2 turds in the pot about who ruled Iraq. That's pretty indisputable, even in '91, heck even more so in '91.
Mr. Bush and Company may have some rather pressing domestic issue questions to answer for very soon.
"Overconfidence breeds error whe we take for granted that the game will continue on the normal course:When we fail to provide for an unusually powerfulf resource - a check, a sacrafice, a stalemate. Afterward the victom may wail, "But who coulr have dreamt of such and idiotic looking move?" " - Fred Rheinfeld in "The Complete Book of Chess"
Comments
What I don't get at all is this- even if you support the policy, how on earth can you think it's being executed competently?
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453615.183333333.html
Didn't we pull their ass from the fire a few years back?
Of course it's distasteful...as distasteful as what similar utterings from the far right churches at the time of the asian tsunami which befell on mainly muslims...in fact the same tasteless muslims who also lean on as extreme a side as those christians said the same of their fellow muslim brothers...
there are really twisted remarks from the thousands of far right neo nazist, racist organisations from america and germany who slash at muslims, blacks and brown than there are than ultra islamists in the internet but do i consider all whites as representative of that? NO!
but a lot of whites do shiver straightaway when confronted with backpack carrying arab looking man in an underground train...in fact they shoot to death an arab looking brazilian who was not carrying a backpack with 12 bullets in his head and then alleged he was running away when he was not...that's how paranoid most whites are...
btw, didn't nearly all the christians say the black plague that befell europe as an act of God to punish all the sinners then? what balderdash to those who are not God fearing and what truth to all those God fearing men and women then...
I guess my issue with this conversation is once again everyone is saying what is wrong with the US Goverment. I maintain a business policy within our organization that I learned many years ago. If you gotta bitch, bitch. Bitch as much as you want! AS long as you spend as much energy and thought into providing a solution.
Facty... ok, same response to ya. So beyond a rather fatalistic attitude about the end of the world and there is no stopping it so we should all just shove a muzzel in our mouth opinion do you have an altertive policy solution as to what should be done?
Are either of you guys proposing that we have a violetn overthrow ot the US goverment? Replace Bush? We don't do that in our system. We hve checks and balances and we can impeach if he goes too far. Bush won the presidency. We live with the hand we are dealt and we modify the laws if we feel he or anyone else has overstepped their boundries of found an inappropriate loophole... The system of jurisprudence in the US is based upon precedent. The system evolves over time and hopefully improves. It is not perfect but it provides more HOPE to teh everyday man to improve the lot of he, his family and his progeny. No other system in history has come close to duplicating it. Do we mess up? Sure. But our system corrects for this. It may take years, it may take decades. But it corrects. Propose me another system that works!
Give me your solutions. I am receptive gentlmen. If you'r gonna talk the talk then walk the walk. That would be cricket.
i'm not that fatalistic as to think there will be an end of the world...in fact i advocate all the time for softening the inevitable if the inevitable is to happen...reduce the damages...
scenario 1 possibility: energy crisis and the ozone carnage will (ok may well) create a semi frozen zone in the northern and southern hemispheres...migration of population towards the equatorial belt...such major migration can only be achieved by force from the powerful at the expense of the weak and meek...maybe huge conflicts?
scenario 2 possibility: usa through their use of force and misplaced world power leadership role went about their business as badly as the romans did, followed by the spanish and then the british who were all superpowers in their relevant era and they too contributed the driving forces of the world's gdp then...america will wilt through mismanagement of the economy (one big error is to think it will have a nett gain in the iraq adventure through the oil loot)...but no, the oil is not flowing...there is hardly any maintenance possibility let alone expanding the oil production volume...meanwhile the cost of iraq war is now 200,000 billion dollars at 221 million dollars a day...
cricket to counter scenario 1: reduce world population through birth control, reduce ozone destruction by america taking an agressive leadership "whup them" role in controlling green house effects by firstly signing the kyoto agreement...migrate peacefully to the less inhabited equatorial belt and reduce energy expenditure...use the resources not for war but for food cultivation efficiently in terms of energy expenditure...go back to the basics of using pedal power mixed with auto power...good for the physical health...etc. etc. etc....alternative is to allow half the world population to perish through famines and wars...this world can only sustain 4 billion people not 15 billion by 2020! of course i hope my friends and families will be amongst these 4 billions by staying out of the manic madness the world is currently undergoing...i might not be around to see it would i...
cricket to counter scenario 2: yes, sack your president and not to go wars anymore...let the sadam husseins of the world kill their own people within their borders if these people know not how to deal with their own dictators...if the us 0f a really wants to help...use covert means and take these dictators off this world rather than kill the innocent people along with the bad...us of a should concentrate in using their economic resources they are so good in accumulating to help the world through a benevolent way to earn the affections of the world at large...then these al qaeda type fanatics will disappear gradually or they will concentrate their resources and fervently misplaced fanaticism on the sadam husseins of the world...one not well kept secret is that osama hates sadam to the hilt and he would just as easily kill him as he would bush...the alternative to america not resorting to non-war intervention is that their world super power position be taken over by china and they slowly wilt away like the romans, the spanish and the british did...
[Edited on 2/9/2005 by FactyCrab]
Re Bush, he should be fired for a range of impeachable acts, lying to congress, etc.
He thinks he's entitled to take pre-emptive action against a country whose leader may commit a crime, yet you want to give him his full term to create more havoc.
I'm sorry but saying he should go is the most constructive solution I can offer for America, so long as Cheney doesn't take over. But if you can't get rid of him, at least stop encouraging him.
Look, I really don't like commenting on domestic issues, but America has become an international issue.
BTW, sorry to tell you this but to believe that no other system has ever come close to duplicating your system of jurisprudence is a bit much. I'd prefer the British or Australian court system any day, but they're not perfect either.
Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America! ;)
Spin ;)
[Edited on 2/9/2005 by Dr_Spin]
Dr. Spin,
"I'm sorry but saying he should go is the most constructive solution I can offer for America, so long as Cheney doesn't take over. But if you can't get rid of him, at least stop encouraging him. "
Hmm, that presents a small problem in that we have a series of laws that dictate who takes over in the event of an impeachment. I don't think you would like any of the next few i line any better. So what you are really sugggesting a violent overthrow of the US. That can be the only way thay HE can go. Makes a good soundbite. get's headlines but is totaly unrealistic. We should all be driving hyrdogen powered cars, no one should smoke, we should all eat organic food. Yea yea yea, all good things but about as likely to happen in the next two weeks as replacing Bush. That is not a realisic soluton. Bush is one man, Yes, the Commnader-in-Chief fo the US but any leader is made up of they men eh chooses fo rhis team. It's the team of neo-cons who tend to be the problem.
"Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America"
THAT was NOT my point so please don't fuck with my words and twist them. You came down pretty frigggen hard on the US and my point was that you are forgeting the very positve impact that the US has had on the world in it's fvery short 200 years of history. Now you're saying that "look here's the typical arrogant ameican" in my face.
I really don't like having an open discussion and then someone reduces it to petty soundbites. That is immature and pisss me off. I had a similar conversation in a bar many years ago at university. The same kind of crap. My suggestion then, as now, is how bout we finish this round and we take this outside, I kick your ass, and then we come in and you buy the next round cause you lost and we start over from scratch. I really feel the urge to take out my aggressions with a bit of physical violance so that w can get back to our discussion.
Now, does that fit in better with you view of Americans? That is how it happens in the irish catholic neighborhood of my upbringing
If you feel responsible for helping elect him, so be it.
But please don't shoot the messenger!
I hope you weren't really theatening me with violence. That would suggest to many that you have lost the argument, not me.
"No other system (your system of jurisprudence, as I pointed out) in history has come close to duplicating it."
Did I really **** with your words"?
I studied in America, and law in Australia, and have managed British, Australian, Norwegian and Malaysian Companies. I've been expert witness many times and spent months in court. I love America, but recognise the merits of other systems too, and I pointed out that the British and Australian systems were not perfect either.
OK then I added the comment...Where do you guys get that line that nothing ever comes close to the good old USA? Yeah, ya heard it in America! ;)
Did you notice the wink? Tongue in cheek? On this board you're not supposed to get too upset if we soften an "offensive" comment with an appropriate emoticon.
So do you really have an objective basis for your claim that I **** with your words because that's not what you meant?
Bernie, I'm OK about ending this thread. I feel very badly for all the unnecessary suffering and death in the South at this time. I'm sure Americans are hurting over the events of this last week, and I wish you all well.
Spin
now you are the one who ****ed with and twisted my words...where did i say that n. & s. hemispheres will freeze over..."semi frozen" is not "frozen"... ;)
i never said an ice age would come soon...with global warming and the huge rize in the ocean temperatures rising towards both poles, any weatherman would tell you that winters are going to be progressively colder and longer...
i alluded to the fact that the above coupled with the oil crisis, usa and eu might start wanting to migrate to save costs of heating in winters and to lessen their miseries...
:D :D :D
p.s. and why would you want to suggest a meteor hitting earth...is that likelier than my prognosis?
[Edited on 3/9/2005 by FactyCrab]
I did not vote for our current President and I ahve to live with teh decisions made by the mojority of the voting public. Hence, In some cases you are preachign to the choir. Which means that although I agree with many of the things I can't really let ya get away with some of the more soundbited political speak .
"Did you notice the wink? Tongue in cheek? On this board you're not supposed to get too upset if we soften an "offensive" comment with an appropriate emoticon." -dr spin
no, I didnt' read it as tonge in cheek so much is lost in writtne words on boards like this. I thought I all the sudden was talking to someone who just wanted to bash the US and there was not point in further discussion. SO, my apologies for the offer to take it outside... but, as I said, maybe if we bop :spank: each other a couple times it might clear both our minds a wee bit and then we could have a beer;)
facty, My point was that there are innumerable things that COULD happen. One cannot predict all the bad things so we might want to live int he HOPE that all is not lost. Just seemd like you where being very fatalistic. I really don't see the people leaving Martha's Vinyard until it's under 10 feet of permafrost. Regardless of the likehood nothing is going ot happen until any of these events would reach critical mass.
Not really enought space to cover the issues related to Kyoto here. Although I think we SHOULD have signed there are some short term problems it would have prevented. Should we have sucked it up and signed. sure. but SOME congressmen and senatrs kind of like their jobs and the problems will not happen in their lifetime. very short sighted but that's realit.
oops. gotta go more later
I'm all for a beer together.
As Emmett, Facty, Viges, Forzaminardi, KL Man and others can attest.
But you don't really need to "pop" me, or try to (I might not be that easy!). Just maintaining that I reduce serious argument to soundbytes has hurt me more than mere fisticuffs.
Soundbytes indeed, from someone who voted for the soundbyte king :-
"This isn't about a day, this will take weeks (or was it months)"
such insightful understanding about the scale of Katrina.
"I won't forget this!"
you bet he won't!
" We will re-build this great city!" no mention of the need to rebuild all along the coastlines of Mississippi and Louisiana, or whether there will be serious discussion about what best to do with New Orleans and the hurricane rpone coastline.
" I've signed a 10.5 Billion bill as a downpayment" no mention of trying to cut the 2.5 billion flood works program to 20% of that a few years ago.
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees"
that's mostly what the $2.5B was to prevent. Can the President read? OK, it wouldn't have held the F5 Hurricane levels but would have given more time for evacuation.
"I'm looking forawrd to going down there" Oh dear!
Seriously, Bernie, I may have used some short key statements for effect, but I have written pretty extensively on Iraq, Global Warming, Tsunami, and 911. I practically implored people not to vote for Bush last time, and they did, defending this President through blind patriotism.
Its time to take off the blinkers and demand effective government, accountability and respect for international law and conventions.
Otherwise you're neglecting America to defend a fool!
How's that for a soundbyte?
Spin
[Edited on 4/9/2005 by Dr_Spin]
You state: "Soundbytes indeed, from someone who voted for the soundbyte king"
I take i tyou mean President Bush.
Perhaps you have not been reading my my posts.
I am pretty sure that I clearly stated:
"I did not vote for our current President and I have to live with the decisions made by the mojority of the voting public."
Maybe if we did pop each othe rin the head and then have a beer after th cobwebs where clear we might be able to read each other's comments more clearly as it is apparant that I am not bein clear enough for you to understand.
I did not vote for our current President but that does not change that he IS the current Commander in Chief.
I know that must sound confusing to you.
Pointing out that his is not the sharpest tack in the box is repetitive. I believe I stated long ago:
"1. President Bush is a poor leader and has too many Yes-men and neo-con's on staff. Discussing his abilities or Rummy's is like beating my head against the wall"
and
"I guess my issue with this conversation is once again everyone is saying what is wrong with the US Goverment. I maintain a business policy within our organization that I learned many years ago. If you gotta bitch, bitch. Bitch as much as you want! AS long as you spend as much energy and thought into providing a solution. "
It seems that you want to continue to beat that dead horse. To what end? what is your point? I conceded that Bush was nto the best Preseident we have ever had. I, personally did not vote for him.
Now what? What do you want ot do? what is your slution other than pointing out how bad he is? what to you hope to achieve other than make yourself feel good bush bashing? you have not made ONE constructive solution.
Perhaps I was impressed with your first post n this this thread and thought that you wanted to dialogue. I see now that it is just bush bashing. That's really too bad....
far better than america calling for our previous PM to be deposed...al gore came to our commonwealth games opening and walked into the dinner as a guest and promptly blasted our previous pm and walked out! americans can disrespect our democracy and asked for revolt...jeepers...dr_spin just kept reminding you yankee guys on this board to vote in someone smart next time around...
spin won't ask for a revolution or an impeachment i think...God forbids that bush is impeached and cheney steps in!
to me john kennedy had an aura to the world as one of a dashing hero of the persecuted, nixon as one who was a conniving greasy haired mafia crook...bush will go down in history as a bumbling incoherent fool...
for the sake of america and the world, please don't make another 2 term mistakes, americans!
factycrab, are we reading the same posts? I feel like I've been reading a bad sitcom where the mother in law alwasys reminds the son how much of a piece of shit his wife is. What's the point.
"I did not vote for our current President and I ahve to live with teh decisions made by the mojority of the voting public. Hence, In some cases you are preachign to the choir. Which means that although I agree with many of the things I can't really let ya get away with some of the more soundbited political speak ."
I think I did read that originally and was wrong in later suggesting you did. With all the stuff going on, I drew an incorrect conclusion without going back and checking.
To me one of the biggest problems with those of you who don't see the need to tell Bush he'w wrong is that then the Bush bashers have to go the next step and blame the Bush voters.
Bush, by so stubbornly refusing to ever admit personal blame, also causes international resentment to swell against Americans generally.
I don't want to blame the US for the errors of a dangerous few, but people keep saying that Muslims should speak up against the extremists. Doesn't that hold for America also?
Before anyone says that I'm wrongly comparing a great nation to low-life terrorist killers, let me say that maybe the US is a thousand times more powerful and a thousand times more able to influence world affairs therfore it should apply a much higher standard for its own performance and that of its leaders.
It seems there's quite a few things we agree on. It would be unfortunate of freedom of speech brought us into hostility.
Let me finally caution you against the tendency of some of your countrymen to attack personally those who present an opposing viewpoint.
"Swiftboating" is a term in current use. "Roving" may soon be another. If it's not obvious to all of you yet, it certainly is to those of us who proclaim freedom of speech and diversity of opinion as strengths.
BTW in looking back to verify your quote, as a precursor to admitting my error, I discovered quite a few constructive suggestions and solutions. Seek and ye shall find!
Spin
Errors have been made. It is up the the populance of the US to make the cahnge.
Some basics of good communication are in order. If someone from TOIT point out a error on Minardi's part it is taken personally by a member of this group. IT is salt into an open wound. Simarly if someone points out that you area bastard one time that is fine but then pointing out "hey, I met some guyin bar who said he did your mom, maybe he's your dad" is not going to get a good costructive response.
If you have every seen the movie "Animal House" you might recall a scene where one of the active brothers comments "He can't do that to our pledges! Only we can do that to our pledges" is a good lesson. Some of the things your are saying, although true is just addiing fuel to the fire and not serving any constructive purpose What goes around comes around. Mr. Bush may perhaps be learning a good life lesson himself in the current natural disaster. You should not power play politics in time of natioanl cirsis with people's lives at stake. Time will tell.
By "bashing" the voters you solve nothing but making yourself feel better.
"winning" in Iraq may no longer be hte issue. It is saving people's lives and letting them live in a society and government of their choosing without bloodshed. How that happens will not be assisted by the US making a whoelsale withdrawal as history as shown.
Mrrs. Bush and company have not done any favors for the US perception int he world. He is has a dramatically different approach to World Relations than his predecessor. Mr. Clinton was perceived as not wanting to have a body count. Bush is diametrically opposed. It might be a good lesson to learn for World leaders that US politics can swing the complete oppostie direction if the US electorae perceives that we are not portraying a strong leadership postion. In other words, soemtime the US people want you to walk softly and carry a big stick... but, lest anyone forget, sometimes we will lect a leader who is more than willing and happy to use it. Then it is time to let the pendulum swing back and we vote in someone more akin to the present need to correct the perception lest we become a bully. At present we are in the Bully phase. ...and so it goes...
Your TOIT analogy is unfortunate!
Do you see me as a competitor or enemy?
I have five of my family living in the USA and both my country and my wife's are two of America's most prominent allies.
OK, I am not an American citizen, but as I have pointed out I studied there, have visited many times (travelled 20 States) and have great affection for America.
If the US President confined himself to domestic matters, your rejection of outside criticism would be fair enough.
However, this thread is about Iraq, where GWB is executing his policy of US right to pre-emptive action, on false premises in other people's country.
Beyond Iraq, he also speaks belligerently about Iran and North Korea, apparently again with little understanding of the forces he would face there. He thumbs his nose at the responsible world community of nations who are trying to agree ACTION on global warming.
Don't be surprised when citizens of the world react. We are not all reassured that we should just wait because one day the pendulum will swing back.
Logical responses are needed now and logic need not fear criticism.
Spin
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/06/iraq.traffic.reut/index.html
"Overconfidence breeds error whe we take for granted that the game will continue on the normal course:When we fail to provide for an unusually powerfulf resource - a check, a sacrafice, a stalemate. Afterward the victom may wail, "But who coulr have dreamt of such and idiotic looking move?" " - Fred Rheinfeld in "The Complete Book of Chess"
or a natural disaster for that matter...