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GUILTY... BUT NOT GUILTY!

Neil_s
in ForzaMinardi.com Forum
Can someone explain to me how McLaren were found guilty of having Ferrari documents and were not at least lightly penalised???
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Comments

  • Telstar
    I think the did not get punished because the FIA can't prove any of that info was used in the design of the 2007 McLaren. They reserve the right to call McLaren again on these charges if they can prove it.

    Personally I agree with not penalizing McLaren, but they should have handled things better concerning the few employees that told Coughlin to destroy the documents. They should have forced him to or McLaren should have brought this up instead of a copy shop worker.
  • Neil_s
    OK. So I go to rob my neighbour an amount of say 1000 pounds, and if I get caught I will tell the police I have not used the money yet! This will enable me to walk out scott free according to this sentence!
  • steamdrivenhammer
    Neil your neighbour wants his £1000 back. lol

    According to the autosport website Jean Todt's not a happy bunny.

    The problem is proving the allegations, unless the FIA get hold of every McLaren used during the year and strip it down to see if any parts were copied from the Ferrari then i can't see what the FIA could have done differently. The result is similar to Scottish law were a jury or a judge can return a verdict of "not proven" when there is insufficient evidence in a case.
  • Neil_s
    The allegations WERE proved. McLaren were in possession of Ferrari data. Remember the 1000 pounds!
  • steamdrivenhammer
    I understand Neil. But the FIA said although McLaren WERE found guilty of possesing said document the FIA couldn't prove that the information was used to gain an advantage on track.

    Personally I believe that McLaren could have used the document to challenge the legality of Ferrari's alledged flexing floor. Because with out any inside knowledge it was pretty hard to tell if the floors flexed just from video footage alone.
  • Telstar
    I think there is much more to this espionage story still to come before accusing McLaren of any wrong doing, as it seemed like it was only Coughlin. Still need to see what all Nigel Stephney's role exactly was.
  • DoubleD
    Here's a thought. How about the Italian courts taking action at Monza and impounding the McLarens as evidence.
  • viges
    The last time they did that at Imola, the teams and Bernie and the FIA threatened to pull the plug. We'll see ...
  • viges
    Anyway, today's story is that the Italian Federation is taking this to FIA appeal.
  • minardimontreal
    The FIA should tell both Ferrari and Mc Laren to stay home, and bring the whole soap opera to court and get to the bottom. Stepney says, once agin he was spied on by Ferrari, set-up etc... If this is true, it is bad, very bad. What I fail to understand, or missed it, is the following: DID COUGHLAN EVER MENTION HE GOT DOCUMENTS FROM STEPNEY. Alot of info was leaked, but never any word of when , how, where he got DOCs.

    As an Italian, and Ferrari fan to some extend, I belive Ferrari did do some hany panky in all of this sordid affair. I think it is time Montezemolo gets out of the picture. He did good, but now seems to be speaking rubbish lately. Especially after Mc Laren's Monaco victory he called it a joke, and promised a Ferrar victory in MTL!!

    Both Ferrari and Mc Laren (for they too are not "clean" in this story) have bought F1 to shame.

    Sorry....this is my take in this soon to be best seller of a book or film!!!!!

    Phil
  • Jello_Biafra
    Coughlan and his wife submitted affidavits, presumably fingering Stepney in the process.

    They also approached Nick Fry with a business proposition.. together.
  • viges
    For the first time, McLaren has said why it was able to protest the Ferraris after Oz (flexible floors). It was an email from Stepney NOT the docs at Coughlan's house.

    Just taking a step back here; would any of us have trusted those documents or how they came into our possession?
  • JumpeySpyder
    Here is Mclarens side :-

    http://www.mclaren.com/latestnews/pdf/Letter from Ron Dennis to Luigi Macaluso.pdf
  • forzaminardi
    as if anyone would take the time to read that... this whole thing reminds me a bit of the Alberto Gonzales affair currently unravelling in the US: some negligible hanky panky at the fringes of the real action, the effects of which are unknown but likely to be minor and the only people blowing it out of proportion are the ones who have personal business to settle. booooooring
  • Jello_Biafra
    .. did you just defend Alberto Gonzales?
  • manlio27
    Now situation seems really to get to the worse from McLaren.
    I only know what I read on Internet about this email exchange between Alonso and De la Rosa, but if news were confirmed, I'm afraid championship is over for McLaren, Hamilton's dream will come to an end, and ALonso will be free to leave for 2008.
    Certainly, the cancelling of the Appeal Court meeting and the calling of another FIA World Council instead has a meaning.

    Certainly, if it has really been Alonso who diffused these new evidence (as rumoured in Italy and Germany) I'll elect him as my new genius of evil :D
  • Petroltorque
    There's never any smoke without fire. It surprises me that Coughlan ( who had to be bailed out by Newey in 04 after designing a dog) produces a cr thats bang on the money on Bridgestone rubber. I think Flavio summed it up best; " If I had access to TOIT's weight distribtion and wheelbase, I would not be struggling Now!"
  • Nuvolari
    My predictions for thursday:

    Mclaren out of the constructors title, gets a two race ban (and we get four drivers fighting for the championship at the last two races).

    BTW, I agree that the Briattore argument is the final one.
  • Stan
    My prediction: Nothing's going to happen.
  • Murph
    My thoughts on any punishment for McLaren have changed. I thought that McLaren had escaped.....but after reading in the Times Online site about 166 pages of new info that was presented...and that the "timeline" covering the scandal no longer begins in late April but now early March........plus AUTOSPORT is now reporting that Uncle Ron is trying to suck Renault into this mess........

    I agree with Nuvolari that McLaren is out of the Constructors Championship.

    I am not so sure about any race bans though....... I'd hate to see those even if deserved.......

    What a mess......... I sure miss the 70's............
  • viges
    If one believes McLaren is guilty (and that's a big 'if') how is this any different (or indeed as bad) as designers flitting between teams?

    i.e. Tombazis TOIT-McLaren-TOIT in the space of two years.

    My gut feeling is some docking of points from the constructors' championship. I would prefer the FIA to tell TOIT to get on with it in the Italian courts and leave the championship alone, for the time being.
  • Nuvolari
    I guess there`s a huge difference between legally contracted people going one place to another, with the knowledge of both parts involved plus the rest of the world, and flow of information from whitin a team from one of its employees.

    At least the honesty-filled but highly hipocrat speech of Mclaren has ceased, or will cease will all that. The big problem is, the average spectator may think (with a good dose of commom sense) that one way or another this championship is probably spoiled already, specially if Ferrari wins off track, or if Mclaren wins on track but with no punishment. FIA might be well aware of that, thatś why a think a race ban will come into play, just like 1994 (no matter who was right at the time).
  • Nuvolari
    and now Autosprint has come with something new... at least a well inspired speculation!
  • forzaminardi
    HOLY COW, 100 million!!! That's enornmous! Can they appeal?
  • minardirule
    $100 million plus no constructors championship points loosing them another $70 million in TV money, thats got to hurt, how much more will they loose from sponsors?

    I think in theory they can appeal as this is a new world council ruling but will they? might make it worse?
  • Minardi4eva
    Correct me if im wrong here

    Mclaren have been thrown out of the construstors championship. Does this mean they'll now recieve no prize money and no tv revenue for this season? Add the $100m on top. Surelt this is going to cripple them for next year
  • minardirule
    The TV money seems to vary according to reports autosport say they dont lose it others that the will, but just to stick the knife in if they do take part in the rest of the season and if either of the drivers win a race no one from McLaren can be on the podium and they won't recieve the constructors trophy!!!

    Did Todt write that in himself???
  • Minardi4eva
    Ive just read the statement properly and noticed this

    "Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to 100 million dollar, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction."

    So does this mean the fine is basically capped at 100mil?
  • Stan
    Hmm. $100m That's sick. What is it going to be used or? Ferrari sponsoring? Or does everyone of the FIA get a salary boost next year?
  • Telstar
    The way you have it quoted Minardi4eva, it sounds to me that the points that have been deducted have a certain amount of money attached to it and that the FOM income from those points would be deducted from the $100 million.

    As minardirule had said $70 million, the fine Mclaren would pay would be $30 million. So its a good thing for McLaren that they had a lot of points so they are not paying $100 million, losing money you haven't received yet still has to hurt.
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