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Look people - back in the day, the DAYS of REAL racing drivers, tire conservation and brake conservation etc WAS A HUGE part of motor racing.
Back when a pit stop meant doom for your finishing position in most cases.
What the Michelin boys copuld have done was just conserve their tires like REAL racers sometimes have to do and just suffer a crap race. OR tempt fate.
You're kidding right? While Michelin didn't physically prevent teams from participating, as far as I know the US legal system Michelin's "we advise you not to race" did effectively the same thing. If the teams were to run in spite of that statement they would open themselves to unbelievable legal liabilities. Potentially even criminal liabilities.
In an ideal world the problem should have been identified, then all parties should have sat down and found the best possible solution (even if that mean compromise) to allow events to move forward. This would have been the mature thing to do.
What happened on Sunday morning was blame shifting and finger pointing, as a result the worst solution was found.
In hindsight the initial blame can be placed at Michelins door and for that, heads should roll. As for the subsequent child-like behaviour, which resulted in the farcical “race” all the parties involved (teams, FIA, Berne and Michelin) should share the responsibility.
The uncompromising stance that the players are taking at the moment can only end badly for formula 1.
Just got back from Indy....... my "thoughts" on this debacle.
1) Michelin shit the bed big time...
2) The Indianapolis Star newspaper had a drawing in Monday's issue showing the proposed chicane....... it consisted of a tire barrier on the exit of turn 12 that would slow cars at that exit.......the barrier would continue down the short chute and direct the cars immediately onto the slower and much narrower inner pit road........the cars then would then turn slightly left at the pit entrance and go back on the main straight............. it must have been designed by the same clown that came up with their Indy tire compounds....
3) The Michelin teams were told that if they used tires that they did not qualify with ( I'm guessing this is in reference to the "Spanish" tire) there would be a penalty but not exclusion. The teams later said the Spanish tires would have suffered the same problems.
4) The Michelin teams were told that they would be able to repeatedly change the affected tire during the race and if the tires showed that they would otherwise fail, there would be no penalty.
5) The idea of not only having the chicane but having the Michelin teams not earn points is simply wacko......how does one explain that the track is changed and that if Kimi wins the race he earns zero points?.....that might work in the Porsche Super Cup but niot in F1...............
6) Tony George ( whom I dislike intently) is blameless for this farce.....it is not Ferrari's fault that Michelin screwed up and couldn't produce a proper race tire....and (quoting from this morning's Indianapolis Star article by Bob Kravitz......what was THE Purpose of of having the original 20 cars come out on the grid only to have the 14 Michelin men quit.....according to Adrian newey it was "Maybe to give them something of a show.")..Now there is arrogance!
What will be the fallout..... (1) I'm afraid the USGP is dead.
(2) Mercedes and the rest of the manufacturers will have their series afterall......I believe that this was the real reason for this debacle...Uncle Ron, Frank, and others wanted to draw the line in the sand with Max & Bernie....... hell of a victory.
3) going to Essay's tire center bright and early tomorrow morning......going to replace those Michelin's on the wife's Acura....I'm concerned about the left rear............
4) Quig & I will have to figure which race we will have to adopt as the home race of the MCSF.......... Spa is my choice..and it;s easy to spell !!!
In hindsight the initial blame can be placed at Michelins door and for that, heads should roll. As for the subsequent child-like behaviour, which resulted in the farcical “race” all the parties involved (teams, FIA, Berne and Michelin) should share the responsibility.
I agree with your hindsight thoughts.
One thing I have a question about is:
Shouldn't Michelin's failure be looked the same way as other technical failures in the past such as faulty/incorrect engine spec for a race which honda (spa 2002? 4 engine failures in the race) and mercedes (phematic valve failures Australia 1999) have done in the past.
Clearly Michelin got it wrong, and they will pay through the bad publicity they have received. But the events from saturday to sunday before the race, reminded me of the saying "can't see the forest from the trees"
Good to hear from you Murph, sorry it was such a wasted journey. I really do feel for everyone who forked out so much cash to be there.
Yes, F1 at Indy must be dead and Michelin worldwide are looking pretty shakey.
Murph, I agree with most of your points. As I understand it, Michelin said it had to be a chicane or nothing. Michelin's intransigence is at the root of this.
BTW Bernie instructed the teams to form the grid - I believe this legally absolves him of liability. He delivered 20 cars on the grid and the installation lap, of course, is a race lap.
Build the damn chicane, and disallow the Michelin teams post race after a hearing and deal with the fallout. At minimum bring off the event.
I'm not interested in whether Michelin was at fault, that is obvious, they could have been punished without alienating anyone and everyone who bothered to pay for entrance or switch on the TV.
100% correct. Michelin might have made one big fuckup, but why punish the race fans? Imho this reeks of Ferrari, with the FIA in their pocket, seeing an opportunity to force it's rivals to suck eggs by either a) not racing at all; or b) having to slow on that corner, thus giving Ferrari a massive advantage.
Is it really any surprise that the FIA's suggestion for the Michelin teams to 'slow down' would suit Ferrari right down to the ground as they scarpered off into the distance?
Grit your teeth, build a chicane, run the race, exclude them all later. :rolleyes:
how could you blame someone else? It's all michelin's fault.
You are missing the point: no one denies Michelin screwed up, but there was a better way to put on a show last Sunday.
I'll just say that the idea that the Michelin teams should have 'slowed' at turn 13 is as ridculous as they come. What would the FIA have determined as a safe speed? What if they were wrong? Who would have accepted liability if a Minardi or Jordan slammed into the back of a suddenly slowing Williams and a driver had been killed?
wich solution? Michelin did the mess, they didn't race Any solution would have been wrong
To build a chicane that very day would have been simply ridicoulus To let the race and eventually disqualify them would have been stupid. What if Kline or Sato had crashed Albers, what if Alonso had crashed on Schumacher???
Murph the voice of reason. I'd vote for the FIA solution. The Michelin teams race but they take the last corner in a lower gear, defacto cutting their cornering speed and tyre loads. The drivers can push as hard as they like but in a lower gear they would risk blowing their engines. With regards to Minardi and Jordan's participation. If they had not taken part they would be facing liabilities to the race promotor with the other Michelin teams. Can't think what excuse they could give to the FIA panel. Murph's right the whole debacle is a means of bringing the concorde agreement to its denouement. A word of caution, its the oxegen thats keeping the sport alive. I doubt these 10 team principles could agree on how to piss straight, far more agree a new contractual agreement.
read on teletext last night that Michelin and their teams are going to be punished for bringing the sport into disrepute. So withdrawing's going to cost them big but how big.
Fine but would the fans be happy? In my view it is no less of a farce.
No offense to all the Americans but most of them prefer seeing drivers crash heavily than win.
saw this in my in-box and thought it made some excellent points..........
"Former Formula One public relations guru turned journalist Peter Windsor has predicted that the wrath of Bernie Ecclestone will fall on the seven teams who declined to compete in Sunday's United States Grand Prix.
Speaking on Speed TV's Wind Tunnel show, Windsor claimed that Ecclestone had all but told the Michelin-shod teams to race whatever they had been told by the tyre supplier, but was defied by each and every one.
"One of the watersheds of today was that Bernie stared people in the eye, literally eyeball-to-eyeball, before the race, and said 'you are going to get in that car and race' - not to the drivers, but to the team owners - and they stared him back," he said, "At the end of the day, in this particular situation, the eyeballing didn't work for Bernie. It's the first time I can remember it not working for him and there will be repercussions."
While disgruntled fans, Indianapolis Motor Speedway and others all pointed the finger of blame in various directions, Windsor had his own firm views on who should carry the can for what turned out to be a one-sided six-car event.
"It's the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans," he insisted, "Not one of those Michelin team guys said 'we made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility'.
"All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else - but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tyre test to select the correct tyre for Indianapolis? Two - everyone else was at Silverstone."
Windsor also had forthright views on what he felt was going on at Indianapolis, and suggested that things had been blown out of proportion for one reason or another.
"I think this business about the Michelin tyres being unsafe to race has been exaggerated by the teams and, indeed, by Michelin," he revealed, "As far as I understand it, they were only considered to be unsafe, by Michelin, on one very specific corner. And talking to a lot of the drivers, there were ways of getting around that corner, reducing the amount of load that was going through [the tyre]. So I think, first of all, that we need to be very careful about [saying] 'the tyres were unsafe'. I think they were unsafe, but unsafe when used in a specific way.
"I think the Michelin was naive in thinking that there would be a solution that falls outside the framework of the Formula One regulations. They suggested a chicane that makes cars go slower through turn 13, but that was never going to happen in a million years. The FIA is the governing body that disqualifies cars for having a brake duct half a millimetre too large - they are never going to put in a chicane on race morning, around which the cars are not allowed to practice or do anything at all. Equally, there was talk about using another batch of tyres, but that was never going to happen either.
"Tell me where the difference is in what happened today and what might happen at any grand prix where there is a sudden downpour and one tyre company, on intermediate tyres, with no grip at all, [sees] everybody spins off on the straight and there are only five cars left in the race. That's happened before and everyone thinks 'wow, what a great race'. They should have been out there racing and, if there are problems, you drive around the problems as best you can. Racers are racers.
"F1 is about people getting out there and going motor racing. We race in the rain. We race in the wind. We race in the hail. We race in the hot weather. And we have tyre failures and lots of other terrible things, but that's what Formula One is all about, for good and for bad.
"Beyond that, I am as shattered as anyone else. I love Formula One. I've been involved for 30 years and to see that happen on the warm-up lap, the formation lap, all those cars coming in like that, I think it was an absolute disgrace. To be honest, our obligation in this sport, or any sport, is to the fans and for that to happen is just appalling." "
I'd vote for the FIA solution. The Michelin teams race but they take the last corner in a lower gear, defacto cutting their cornering speed and tyre loads. The drivers can push as hard as they like but in a lower gear they would risk blowing their engines.
Whiting's solution was crazy and someone of his experience should knew that. Slowing suddenly would be extremely dangerous with cars behind you at full chat. What about such a situation: Schumacher would have been in the middle of the pack at the end of the first lap. Then Fisichella straight ahead of Schumacher decides not to accelerate as fast as the Ferrari and Schumacher who is at full throtle has now got two options. Either he crashes into the back of the Reanult or he swerves to the left. On a banked corner, at 300km/h, with about 10 other Michelin cars around that don't want to overtake each other by chance... It would have been like russian roulette.
Yes, spot on but I do not think it will make the US race fan suddenly forget what happened. True F1 fans will remian so but if F1 thought/thinks that the situation is doable then they have another thing coming.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'd vote for the FIA solution. The Michelin teams race but they take the last corner in a lower gear, defacto cutting their cornering speed and tyre loads. The drivers can push as hard as they like but in a lower gear they would risk blowing their engines. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whiting's solution was crazy and someone of his experience should knew that. Slowing suddenly would be extremely dangerous with cars behind you at full chat. What about such a situation: Schumacher would have been in the middle of the pack at the end of the first lap. Then Fisichella straight ahead of Schumacher decides not to accelerate as fast as the Ferrari and Schumacher who is at full throtle has now got two options. Either he crashes into the back of the Reanult or he swerves to the left. On a banked corner, at 300km/h, with about 10 other Michelin cars around that don't want to overtake each other by chance... It would have been like russian roulette.
I guess there is only a problem when they are in the same lap (which wouldn't take that long). After that there would be a lot of blue flags. What does a Minardi do when MS wants to overtake them in that spot?
Nevermind. The risk of some bizarre crashes would have been so high at the first few laps that there was no way the Michelin teams were to accept this one. And something else. There was just no way the Michelin drivers would have been seeking the limits of their tyres themselves on track.
Comments
Back when a pit stop meant doom for your finishing position in most cases.
What the Michelin boys copuld have done was just conserve their tires like REAL racers sometimes have to do and just suffer a crap race. OR tempt fate.
No, I blame the Teams that pussied out.
What happened on Sunday morning was blame shifting and finger pointing, as a result the worst solution was found.
In hindsight the initial blame can be placed at Michelins door and for that, heads should roll. As for the subsequent child-like behaviour, which resulted in the farcical “race” all the parties involved (teams, FIA, Berne and Michelin) should share the responsibility.
The uncompromising stance that the players are taking at the moment can only end badly for formula 1.
1) Michelin shit the bed big time...
2) The Indianapolis Star newspaper had a drawing in Monday's issue showing the proposed chicane....... it consisted of a tire barrier on the exit of turn 12 that would slow cars at that exit.......the barrier would continue down the short chute and direct the cars immediately onto the slower and much narrower inner pit road........the cars then would then turn slightly left at the pit entrance and go back on the main straight............. it must have been designed by the same clown that came up with their Indy tire compounds....
3) The Michelin teams were told that if they used tires that they did not qualify with ( I'm guessing this is in reference to the "Spanish" tire) there would be a penalty but not exclusion.
The teams later said the Spanish tires would have suffered the same problems.
4) The Michelin teams were told that they would be able to repeatedly change the affected tire during the race and if the tires showed that they would otherwise fail, there would be no penalty.
5) The idea of not only having the chicane but having the Michelin teams not earn points is simply wacko......how does one explain that the track is changed and that if Kimi wins the race he earns zero points?.....that might work in the Porsche Super Cup but niot in F1...............
6) Tony George ( whom I dislike intently) is blameless for this farce.....it is not Ferrari's fault that Michelin screwed up and couldn't produce a proper race tire....and (quoting from this morning's Indianapolis Star article by Bob Kravitz......what was THE Purpose of of having the original 20 cars come out on the grid only to have the 14 Michelin men quit.....according to Adrian newey it was "Maybe to give them something of a show.")..Now there is arrogance!
What will be the fallout..... (1) I'm afraid the USGP is dead.
(2) Mercedes and the rest of the manufacturers will have their series afterall......I believe that this was the real reason for this debacle...Uncle Ron, Frank, and others wanted to draw the line in the sand with Max & Bernie....... hell of a victory.
3) going to Essay's tire center bright and early tomorrow morning......going to replace those Michelin's on the wife's Acura....I'm concerned about the left rear............
4) Quig & I will have to figure which race we will have to adopt as the home race of the MCSF.......... Spa is my choice..and it;s easy to spell !!!
ciao
One thing I have a question about is:
Shouldn't Michelin's failure be looked the same way as other technical failures in the past such as faulty/incorrect engine spec for a race which honda (spa 2002? 4 engine failures in the race) and mercedes (phematic valve failures Australia 1999) have done in the past.
Clearly Michelin got it wrong, and they will pay through the bad publicity they have received. But the events from saturday to sunday before the race, reminded me of the saying "can't see the forest from the trees"
Yes, F1 at Indy must be dead and Michelin worldwide are looking pretty shakey.
Murph, I agree with most of your points. As I understand it, Michelin said it had to be a chicane or nothing. Michelin's intransigence is at the root of this.
BTW Bernie instructed the teams to form the grid - I believe this legally absolves him of liability. He delivered 20 cars on the grid and the installation lap, of course, is a race lap.
And Stoddart, as usual, lost a good chanc to keep silent.
ps were you there, emmett?
Is it really any surprise that the FIA's suggestion for the Michelin teams to 'slow down' would suit Ferrari right down to the ground as they scarpered off into the distance?
Grit your teeth, build a chicane, run the race, exclude them all later. :rolleyes:
I'll just say that the idea that the Michelin teams should have 'slowed' at turn 13 is as ridculous as they come. What would the FIA have determined as a safe speed? What if they were wrong? Who would have accepted liability if a Minardi or Jordan slammed into the back of a suddenly slowing Williams and a driver had been killed?
[Edited on 21/6/2005 by MinardiP1]
Michelin did the mess, they didn't race
Any solution would have been wrong
To build a chicane that very day would have been simply ridicoulus
To let the race and eventually disqualify them would have been stupid. What if Kline or Sato had crashed Albers, what if Alonso had crashed on Schumacher???
Michelin is the one to blame.
With regards to Minardi and Jordan's participation. If they had not taken part they would be facing liabilities to the race promotor with the other Michelin teams. Can't think what excuse they could give to the FIA panel.
Murph's right the whole debacle is a means of bringing the concorde agreement to its denouement. A word of caution, its the oxegen thats keeping the sport alive. I doubt these 10 team principles could agree on how to piss straight, far more agree a new contractual agreement.
some excellent points..........
"Former Formula One public relations guru turned journalist Peter Windsor has predicted that the wrath of Bernie Ecclestone will fall on the seven teams who declined to compete in Sunday's United States Grand Prix.
Speaking on Speed TV's Wind Tunnel show, Windsor claimed that Ecclestone had all but told the Michelin-shod teams to race whatever they had been told by the tyre supplier, but was defied by each and every one.
"One of the watersheds of today was that Bernie stared people in the eye, literally eyeball-to-eyeball, before the race, and said 'you are going to get in that car and race' - not to the drivers, but to the team owners - and they stared him back," he said, "At the end of the day, in this particular situation, the eyeballing didn't work for Bernie. It's the first time I can remember it not working for him and there will be repercussions."
While disgruntled fans, Indianapolis Motor Speedway and others all pointed the finger of blame in various directions, Windsor had his own firm views on who should carry the can for what turned out to be a one-sided six-car event.
"It's the teams, these massively paid teams and drivers, who have a responsibility to the fans," he insisted, "Not one of those Michelin team guys said 'we made a horrendous mistake today and we take full responsibility'.
"All they did was blame the FIA, blame Bernie, blame Ferrari, blame Bridgestone, blame everyone else - but they never actually blamed themselves. Do you know how many teams from Michelin actually did the pre-USA tyre test to select the correct tyre for Indianapolis? Two - everyone else was at Silverstone."
Windsor also had forthright views on what he felt was going on at Indianapolis, and suggested that things had been blown out of proportion for one reason or another.
"I think this business about the Michelin tyres being unsafe to race has been exaggerated by the teams and, indeed, by Michelin," he revealed, "As far as I understand it, they were only considered to be unsafe, by Michelin, on one very specific corner. And talking to a lot of the drivers, there were ways of getting around that corner, reducing the amount of load that was going through [the tyre]. So I think, first of all, that we need to be very careful about [saying] 'the tyres were unsafe'. I think they were unsafe, but unsafe when used in a specific way.
"I think the Michelin was naive in thinking that there would be a solution that falls outside the framework of the Formula One regulations. They suggested a chicane that makes cars go slower through turn 13, but that was never going to happen in a million years. The FIA is the governing body that disqualifies cars for having a brake duct half a millimetre too large - they are never going to put in a chicane on race morning, around which the cars are not allowed to practice or do anything at all. Equally, there was talk about using another batch of tyres, but that was never going to happen either.
"Tell me where the difference is in what happened today and what might happen at any grand prix where there is a sudden downpour and one tyre company, on intermediate tyres, with no grip at all, [sees] everybody spins off on the straight and there are only five cars left in the race. That's happened before and everyone thinks 'wow, what a great race'. They should have been out there racing and, if there are problems, you drive around the problems as best you can. Racers are racers.
"F1 is about people getting out there and going motor racing. We race in the rain. We race in the wind. We race in the hail. We race in the hot weather. And we have tyre failures and lots of other terrible things, but that's what Formula One is all about, for good and for bad.
"Beyond that, I am as shattered as anyone else. I love Formula One. I've been involved for 30 years and to see that happen on the warm-up lap, the formation lap, all those cars coming in like that, I think it was an absolute disgrace. To be honest, our obligation in this sport, or any sport, is to the fans and for that to happen is just appalling." "
Slowing suddenly would be extremely dangerous with cars behind you at full chat. What about such a situation:
Schumacher would have been in the middle of the pack at the end of the first lap. Then Fisichella straight ahead of Schumacher decides not to accelerate as fast as the Ferrari and Schumacher who is at full throtle has now got two options. Either he crashes into the back of the Reanult or he swerves to the left. On a banked corner, at 300km/h, with about 10 other Michelin cars around that don't want to overtake each other by chance... It would have been like russian roulette.
And something else. There was just no way the Michelin drivers would have been seeking the limits of their tyres themselves on track.